RANDOM FACTOR

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Torchiador
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RANDOM FACTOR

Postby Torchiador » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:59 am

In these days we spoke about randomness in KO2.
Randomness in the game, in the results, actions. Assuming thant in KO2 there isn't randomness.
In KO2 there are many random events, the first one, in front of our eyes is the shot managed by some players, like Lindsey, R.Curtis,Simpson,Barrett and Scott. when you shoot with these players, there is a random factor that affects the direction of the ball. sometimes happens that you make an orizzontal shot but barrett kicks in diagonal :roll: ... one of the reason that many players put barrett sat down the bench :) . of course this random factor infuences the trend of the game. Of course from this point of view we have nothing to point out about randomness, is already out!
Another one random factor is the ability of the goalkeeper...
I want to point out an another random factor in the KO2 code.
I'm sure that all off you "feel" that sometimes happens strange things in KO2. sometimes happens that you makes a move that you already made hundreds times but:" f**k, in this game it doesn't run!".
I make an example. in these days we are speaking about koLobs. this one could be a good example:
my bro Sandro, (in my opinion the best(f**ked)kolober in the world) has 3 or 4 ways to make a kolob without to pass the ball. he makes a routine dribble starting from the referee's whistle and then he shoots the kolob.
In his life he conceded thousand of goals so he had time to make practice :wink:
But sometimes happens that in a match his routine dribble doesn't run and he loses the ball by himself, before to kicko the lob. no contrast by the opponent, seems that the player forgets the ball on the pitch. it doesn't happen one time only, but it happens for the whole match, seems that in this match there is something wrong (something good for me :D )but, for sure something that overrides the Sandro's movements: something of random is changed in the control of players on the pitch.
Of course this one isn't relative to the kolobs only but it affects everything in the game. sometimes seems to me it is very hard to close a dribbling.
the same happens with normal lobs. sometimes happens that in a game normal lobs don't runs, the goalkeeper catch all the balls, sometimes happens that the goalkeeper catch all the diagonal shot close the first post.
What's happening? is it the "morale factor"?
Did you notice the same?
Steve? any ideas?
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Postby Freshmaker » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:07 am

I've many times had a similar feeling; the game just don't wanna do what I "tell" it to do.
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Postby alkis21 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:17 am

I'm probably alone in believing the 'Polyrakis' theorem:

"In any given moment in Kick Off 2, moving your joystick and/or pressing the button from a certain position with a certain player will produce the exact same result every time you perform the exact same joystick/button move with the same player from the exact same position".
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Postby Bounty Bob » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:40 am

I'm with Gianni on this. I've noticed some matches where the ball gets regularly left behind when attempting a KO lob and usually when I'm team B, (I know A=B, but still). It's definately not that I'm doing anything different, just holding the joystick ready to receive the kick off and start running but sometimes the ball just gets left behind. Like I say, I've only ever noticed it with team B though.

I'm wondering whether A only nearly =B. Yes all the player stats are the same but are there some other hidden depths to the code that cause team B to be lesser in some instances?
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Postby Stainy » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:05 am

Bounty Bob wrote:I'm with Gianni on this. I've noticed some matches where the ball gets regularly left behind when attempting a KO lob and usually when I'm team B, (I know A=B, but still). It's definately not that I'm doing anything different, just holding the joystick ready to receive the kick off and start running but sometimes the ball just gets left behind. Like I say, I've only ever noticed it with team B though.

I'm wondering whether A only nearly =B. Yes all the player stats are the same but are there some other hidden depths to the code that cause team B to be lesser in some instances?



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Postby gdh82 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:28 am

Interesting post, Gianni :)

I believe there is a lot of randomness about KO2 and I'm sure this part of the attraction! Just when you think you're getting the hang of something, its seems to stop working!!! Partly this is what keeps me coming back for more!! :D

Playing my sparring partner Si, we both find, that some matches the shots go in whereas other games the keeper sames them, even though they're probably extremely similar games. At KOBRA II I beat Si 4-1 :D but in another game, the result could be reversed!!!

It seems that sometimes I'll clearly beat the keeper (graphically speaking) but then "the maths" comes into it and decides the keeper will saves the shot after all!

I imagine the better players find ways of scoring with a reduced randomness and so are more likely to score ?

I'm interested to know more about morale too ? I wonder if a keeper makes a few early saves, does his morale go up, helping him to play "out of his skin" ? Conversely, if he concedes a poor goal, does this lower his morale and increase the likelihood of having a nightmare game?
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Postby Abyss » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:34 am

Mind games.

There is some random element in the game, but I don't see a pattern (e.g. "somehow, in this game, all lobs go in"). I just think that the movements required in KO are so precise, that even a little deviation produces a different result.

It's like basketball. A player shoots well in one day and bad in the next and he wonders why, since he is doing the same move all the time. Well, he doesn't. Holding the ball a bit differently, having the arm bent at a slightly different angle, maintaining body balance not in the same way... the are hunreds of little details that make each shot different.
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Postby Bounty Bob » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:41 am

Abyss wrote:Mind games.

There is some random element in the game, but I don't see a pattern (e.g. "somehow, in this game, all lobs go in"). I just think that the movements required in KO are so precise, that even a little deviation produces a different result.

It's like basketball. A player shoots well in one day and bad in the next and he wonders why, since he is doing the same move all the time. Well, he doesn't. Holding the ball a bit differently, having the arm bent at a slightly different angle, maintaining body balance not in the same way... the are hunreds of little details that make each shot different.
I know what you are saying and agree to an extent. Whether or not the lob drops into the net would be the sum of all the things you describe. But on a kick off, one player passes to the other and then the other runs with the ball. If the stick is in position before the ball is kicked, then there is nothing that can be different from one to the next, yet sometimes it all goes pear shaped and the ball is left behind. When this happens once in a game, it appears to happen many times.
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Postby gdh82 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:07 pm

Abyss wrote:It's like basketball. A player shoots well in one day and bad in the next and he wonders why, since he is doing the same move all the time. Well, he doesn't. Holding the ball a bit differently, having the arm bent at a slightly different angle, maintaining body balance not in the same way... the are hunreds of little details that make each shot different.


I'm wondering if these kind of details are programmed into KO2 to produce the randomness we speak of ?
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Postby Torchiador » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:10 pm

alkis21 wrote:I'm probably alone in believing the 'Polyrakis' theorem:

"In any given moment in Kick Off 2, moving your joystick and/or pressing the button from a certain position with a certain player will produce the exact same result every time you perform the exact same joystick/button move with the same player from the exact same position".


Abiss wrote:Mind games.

There is some random element in the game, but I don't see a pattern (e.g. "somehow, in this game, all lobs go in"). I just think that the movements required in KO are so precise, that even a little deviation produces a different result.

It's like basketball. A player shoots well in one day and bad in the next and he wonders why, since he is doing the same move all the time. Well, he doesn't. Holding the ball a bit differently, having the arm bent at a slightly different angle, maintaining body balance not in the same way... the are hunreds of little details that make each shot different.


Alkis, seems that you aren't alone in your belief!
But, I have to dismantle 'Polyrakis' theorem:
Beginning of the match, you attack toward up. 4-2-4. Before the referee's whistle you pull down-left (diagonal) your joystick and hold that direction.
Usually there are no problem, you run with the ball as you expect but sometimes happens that the player "forgets" the ball. repeatable task.
You don't need to restart the match to see this event again, you can try at every kickoff, after every goal.
I'm sure that there is a random factor that infuences the control in game. maybe there is a flag in the code that remember something of the last match, I don't know what...
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Postby Robert Swift » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:25 pm

Let's not forget the old days when you were using Team A but they felt like Team B.

And the nowadays when you use Team B and they are supposed to be equal but still feel like Team B.

Don't tell me it's all in my head :-)

There is loads of randomness anyway - auto slides, auto jumps and also bugs like 'return from red card' and 'corner at the wrong end' all change the game dynamic. Plus there are the silly occasions where keepers don't dive and groundshots from about 30 yards go in.

It's already a very random game, which is why I think we don't need Light Wind to make it any more Random.
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Postby Steve Camber » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:37 pm

The function which requests a random number is used in over 90 different places in the code. There's your randomness!

Another point is that positions are stored to an impressive accuracy of about 5 decimal places. A player might look like he's standing on a particular pixel, but there are 4.3 billion different individual positions which that player could be in and still be regarded as being on that pixel. In much of the code, this high accuracy is ignored which could account for a particular scenario not being identically repeatable.
Last edited by Steve Camber on Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gdh82 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:43 pm

Steve Camber wrote:The function which requests a random number is used in over 90 different places in the code. There's your randomness!


Wow! That sounds random to me!

Unfortunatley I know what of those random places - when I shoot! ;) :lol:
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