Kick Off 2 World Rankings | February 2017

[Lee W]

will there be any new updates?

[LORENZO L]

let's hope !! possible there is not an automatic program and insert the results that do everything by itself ???

[Freshmaker]

There is an automated process indeed. It's most commonly known as Alkis.

AUA?

[Torchiador]

I do think this sort of automation is somewhere broken...
I think that we should replace this automation with something more reliable!

Kidding aside I think Alkis put A LOT of effort in this but due to many reasons (work, family etc) he lost motivation and will.
This kind of things require time which is a finite resource.
Probably now he prefers to spend this finite resource in a different way. I don’t blame him for this.
Anyway I think that the ranking and above all the KOASI is our history. Along with the forum. Although it is a passed medium, it is alway essential for the World Cup keeping track of everything. I doubt it would be possible to arrange a World Cup without the forum.
For what I concern, I think we could find a way to maintain the KOASI and ranking up to date:
Pay Alkis to do the job (to maintain KOASI and ranking is defo a job) I think he can count the hours involved.
I think this could be a good way to find motivations.
Otherwise we could ask Alkis if he could pass all the stuff to somebody who could care about it.
In the same way we could pay somebody to maintain it.
It isn’t like 15 years ago when we have many tournaments in a month. Now we have very few tournaments along the year. To keep things up to date should be different now.
Probably we also should re think about the concept of “inactivity “ as the ranking most luckily looks like a very short list now.

For what I concern I would pay.

Any update Alkis?

[LORENZO L]

hello I would not offend anyone but it's time to update this ranking. I am a spokesman for other people in our kickoff group who, like me, are waiting for the chance to see the updated rankings. I make myself available to do so as soon as you tell me what tools to use to do it. Anyone who agrees with me makes itself heard because we all spend our money and our time on traveling and traveling and it is right to know your position as a leader and how you determine it. I repeat those who think like me, let them feel thank you and excuse the outburst

[Lee W]

regular updates would be great, people are genuinely interested in their, and others', ranking place... almost 3 years without an update is a bit ... well.. ya know... maybe it is time to pass the torch to someone who has the time and dedication?

[Freshmaker]

We have indeed tried to pass the torch a few times, but for reasons I still don't understand it has proven to be quite an impossible performance.

[Noodlebug]

While it was being updated and running, the rankings program and the results database were an absolutely fantastic resource (after tournaments, probably the best feature of the KOA), and I'm sure no-one would wish to deny any credit for Alkis for what he created.

Perhaps - just as a temporary measure while we're waiting for the next update - we could set up something simpler. We have programmers, we have statisticians (Ian K might have some suggestions).

Could we put all the results for the last 3 years on an updatable, open-source spreadsheet, hosted somewhere friendly? If someone sets up a program or a spreadsheet, I'm sure there are plenty of people willing to do the donkey-work of entering results (I'd be up for it). For World Cups and UK champs, Ian's spreadsheets already contain all the relevant information, we just need to put them together and add in the other countries championships and odds-and-ends tournaments that have been posted on the forums. Might take a few months but we'll have something we can look at and measure our results against (or research unknown-quantity opposition!).

And if the original results database ever becomes available to a trusted KOA grandee to update, it will be simpler to access the results than trawling through the forum. Or the data would be there for someone to create a new database with some of the functionality of the old one.

We just need someone with a bit of techie knowhow to take the initiative.

[iankay]

http://www.ianjameskay.me.uk/KickOff2_WC2018.xlsx has results for World Cups 2018, 2017, and 2015.

I can have a go using the last four (or five) world cups only, if someone can point me at the results from 2016 (and 2014)?
However, I'm going on holiday before the Bremen World Cup, so I may not have time before then. But here are some suggestions.

100 points for a win, 50 for a draw, and 1 for each goal difference.
So if you win 1 game by 1 goal, and lose all your other games by a combined 100 goals, your score is 1.
2xpoints for Silver Group. 4xpoints for Gold Group.
Knockout games use aggregate score, excluding extra time/penalties.
2xpoints for Bronze knockouts, 4xpoints for Silver knockouts, 8xpoints for Gold knockouts.
Knockout points are doubled if the winners can still win a trophy: 1st v 2nd, 17th v 18th, 33rd v 34th, Gold/Silver/Bronze semi-finals, all quarter-finals.

2018 WC carries 100% weight, 2017 carries 70% weight, 2016 carries 70%x70%=49% weight, 2015 carries 70%x49%=34.3% weight etc.

All the calculations will be public in a spreadsheet, although it may not be pretty.

What do you think? Don't just criticise, suggest alternatives.

I probably won't take into account strength of opposition, that is complicated. And so is considering national tournament results. If Alkis can send me what he did, and describe it, I'll have a look, but it may be too much work.

Tournament organisers do not have to use World Rankings for seedings. In Wimbledon tennis, they adjust seedings, usually for great players who haven't played a lot of tournaments (Serena Williams, Dagh).

[Steve1977]

Great work and ideas there Ian, I have trawled the forum a little and found this:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13854&p=219006&hilit=how+is+rankings+worked+out#p219006


Spyros kindly posts...
"If I remember correctly, the formula to calculate the rankings points worked (before we started using the A=B version) basically like:

Pts gained/lost = 23 pts for a Team A win or 18 pts for a Team B win * Winner's Rankings/Loser's ranking * tournament importance factor

tournament importance = tournament participants / 32

Now that we use A=B, I think it's 20 pts for a win."


There's also other chats in there though so whether things were altered I'm unsure.

[Freshmaker]

Love seeing this! Great stuff guys.

[iankay]

OK, I think my rules will need changing. I've already changed them to include goals in extra time (but not penalties). Also, ranking points in groups are weighted so that the average number of ranking points is the same in each group, no matter how many people are in it / drop out of it.

This gives these ranking points for WC 2018. Maybe we should give an additional +1000 for reaching the top 16.
If you click on the link above the ranking points are in column A, you can unhide columns to follow the calculations.

Points Position
9,405 1 Fabio Fichera
7,363 2 Gianni Torchio
6,667 3 Thor Skaug
5,973 4 Andy Gregoris
4,748 5 Oliver Stender
3,564 6 Christopher Durrans
1,742 7 Jacob Kofoed
2,068 8 Lee Whiting
3,442 9 Steve Ellesmore
3,724 10 Simon K
3,646 11 Marco de Iaco
2,611 12 Alessandro V
3,625 13 Frank Fuhrmann
2,855 14 Steve Camber
2,015 15 Nikos Andreou
1,433 16 Robert Swift
3,596 17 Lorenzo Lozito
2,967 18 Jørn Meinertz
2,900 19 Mark Williams
2,288 20 Rodolfo Martín
1,948 21 Sandro Torchio
2,444 22 Mick Creevy
2,112 23 Paolo Sotgui
1,465 24 Ian Kay
1,987 25 Garry Currier
1,560 26 Michael G
1,390 27 Peter Klimaschefski
991 28 Stephen Derry
1,116 29 Cornelius Henze
773 30 John Vella
1,187 31 Michele Lorenzetti
588 32 Stephen Baker
1,155 33 Jaume Perelló
1,436 34 Mark Vella
-68 35 Hannes Badrnya
262 Jörg Panhorst
-53 Peter Sommer

[Steve Camber]

yay, any results which lists me above Robert is a win.. that's all that counts

Nice work Ian!