10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Slidebugfixes VOTE RESULT PAGE 7

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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby hogstrom » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:23 pm

I would not be surprised if this end up with 15% A, 40% B and 55% C...and C wins, even though the majority leaning towards having them in the game. Oh well, I followed Peters example and went for B.

Cornelius, again, please consider speeding this voting up. 17:th October is too late. I intend to open up my amiga within days, as soon as possible would like to know what game we will play.
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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby goalkeeper » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:08 am

hogstrom wrote:I would not be surprised if this end up with 15% A, 40% B and 55% C...

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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby Steve Camber » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:27 am

Cornelius wrote:On behalf of a broad public demand an option C was added.

Please don't forget that your vote should be send via pm, for the reasons described in my opening post.

Thanks for adding this. PM sent :)
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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby gdh82 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:22 pm

hogstrom wrote:I would not be surprised if this end up with 15% A, 40% B and 55% C...


I would be. My impression is that the majority want their opponents to have to play with slides too? I could be wrong.

My pm is for Choice.

More importantly, thanks to the organisers for allowing this poll and, slide choice or not, I'm sure this is going to be cracker of a World Cup. 8) TWO WEEKS TODAY! :)
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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby hogstrom » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:29 pm

gdh82 wrote:I would be. My impression is that the majority want their opponents to have to play with slides too? I could be wrong.


Fully agree, Garry. As you say, I also doubt anyone is suicidal enough accepting his players sliding while opponent is not. Thus, option A is likely something of error option.
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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby gdh82 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:51 pm

hogstrom wrote:
gdh82 wrote:I would be. My impression is that the majority want their opponents to have to play with slides too? I could be wrong.

Fully agree, Garry. As you say, I also doubt anyone is suicidal enough accepting his players sliding while opponent is not.


Think I may not have explained myself again, though I do agree John, it doesn't make much sense to mix the slide settings (one off and one on). I was trying to say that my impression, in contrast to your suggested outcome above, was that the majority would favour slides not so much because they themselves want to play with them, but more because it forces their opponent to do the same. It is of course any player's right to do so and I don't wish to criticise or offend anyone by stating this. I could be wrong about this but like we agree, it would seem odd to only have slides yourself.

hogstrom wrote:Thus, option A is likely something of error option.


If I've got this right, my understanding is that Option A is kinda the KOA tournament standard. If two players agree (in this case to play slidefree) then they are free to do so.
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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby alkis21 » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:59 am

I would like to know what the organizers intend to do if only a small number of participants vote. Considering there is hardly any time left for the world cup, I think it is a strong possibility that we'll end up with only 15 votes or so. Will the participants accept a 7-5-3 result for instance, or is there a minimum of votes required?
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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby Cornelius » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:15 pm

alkis21 wrote:I would like to know what the organizers intend to do if only a small number of participants vote. Considering there is hardly any time left for the world cup, I think it is a strong possibility that we'll end up with only 15 votes or so. Will the participants accept a 7-5-3 result for instance, or is there a minimum of votes required?


We will have a organizer's meeting tomorrow where we will discuss this question, as well as a possible shortening of the polling.
13 people have voted so far, but I would preferre it, if at least half of the wc participants took part in the voting - which doesn't make me eager to shorten the polling. But I will tell you more about this tomorrow evening.
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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby Torchiador » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:51 am

Hello organizers, let's not stand on ceremony, I have to be honest: I don't like what it is happening now.
I can understand there are discussions in the German scene, you are going to host the world cup and of course you can do what you do prefer but let me say that every thing needs the right time, the right timing and, of course the right way. In my opinion none of these 3 aspects have been respected.
"Voting about the Slidebugfixes" bug? there's no bug there. There are interesting posts made by John Wilson who described exactly how the thing works and how much wrong is to call it as "bug". I can understand that KO2 is a really complicated business, but to disable the undesired slides is to take a part of the Kick Off deepness and, above all, is to take the knowledge advantage to those players (like me, for example) skilled in to drive in undesired slide the opponent: defending, trying to induce the opponent mistake, it isn't just an art in KO2 but it is routine in every real sport/game.
Basically, enabling this option, you are cutting off a strategical part of the game challenge , forcing a "kick off for dummies" for everyone. This isn't exactly such "freedom of choice" that someone is selling us like a miracle drug.
I write this one, because, at least people should know exactly what is going to vote. to call it as bug, is like to induce the vote towards a precise direction, a sort of propaganda. Usually a vote should be propaganda free. The way to present the vote has been wrong.
The time too. Just two weeks before the world cup, no time to practice if the option will be enable. Knowing that there was a possibility to play in such way in advance, there were chances to practice it, for those "who can live with that" like John and, above all, to not book flights and hotels for those who can't live with that. That isn't a detail we can pass over as there is money already spent, and no time to be refunded if someone can't leave with that rule.
Anyway, what surprised me most, it has been the reaction of moderators.
Usually they are diligent to point out such matters. If this thread/vote would have been opened by Stox/Gianluca, two weeks before Rome 2007 world cup, I guess that the Robert and Alkis' behaviour would have been completely different.
Of course Cornelius ins't Stox but it impossible to pass over the fact that he managed with extreme thoughtless this delicate question and moderators didn't say a single word about this one.
I understand that it isn't not a good idea to start a controversy just before the world cup and maybe moderators preferred to pass over but, I think the fact that Robert, Garry, Steve and Alkis support the "slidefix", it has relevant weight in this matter. I think that if this vote has been opened for the wind, there has been an immediate reaction, even if (for example)the most of the German were for the wind on.
I really hope that nobody feels offended, first of all Cornelius and organizers, we are too old to get it in the wrong way. However it is a delicate question. I know that to organize a world cup is not easy at all, to make everybody happy isn't easy at all, to be a moderator as well.
There is a situation which has to be rectified, though.
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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby alkis21 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:05 am

I think Gianni makes a good point.

In my defense, I did urge the organizers to start this poll earlier and I was in Japan with no access to the KOA forum when this thread was opened. When I got back I didn't really read it as carefully as I should have because I had dozens of things on my mind. Now that I read it more carefully it is true that calling it a bug is hurting the poll's objectivity, and I don't like the options either because they treat autoslides and unintended slides as equal whereas some people only like one of the two. By the way let me state clearly for the 1000000000th time in three years that despite what Gianni wrote above, I do NOT "support the slidefix", I repeat that I am fine with either decision the majority prefers and you all know that I am always at least 51% against change when it comes to rules.

So as far as my responsibility for this is concerned I accept the criticism and I apologize, I do want to point out though that it was not intentional and I do not believe that Cornelius' wording was intentional either.

The obvious question is, what now?
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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby Freshmaker » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:45 am

Very good post Gianni. (Oh, and Alkis as well. :))
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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby gdh82 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:36 am

I really hope that nobody feels offended, first of all Cornelius and organizers, we are too old to get it in the wrong way. However it is a delicate question. I know that to organize a world cup is not easy at all, to make everybody happy isn't easy at all, to be a moderator as well.


Well said Gianni. I'm sure everyone agrees the timing of this vote isn't good. Whatever your views on slides, it gives one side or the other little time to prepare for the outcome. And like Alkis said I was expecting it to happen months ago.

The slide debate has two sides of course but I strongly feel just days before a WC is NOT the time for a full-blow forum discussion. I have deliberately resisted airing my views on the subject despite Jorn's recent thread. We all know where these unfortunately go and I'm sure everyone wants to enjoy the build-up to a WC, which is another reason for holding the vote much earlier.

We all want this WC to be a success and I'm sure it will be. Whatever is decided, mutual respect for each other's preferences is key imo.
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Re: 10th Kick Off 2 World Cup - Voting about the Slidebugfix

Postby dnielsen » Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:36 pm

There are a couple of very simple formulas for the "fix" of the undesired slide:

1) Without the undesired slide, defence becomes simple. Just trap.

2) Without the undesired slide, attack becomes simple. Just trap.

You change the gameplay significantly by changing this trapping mechanic. It is not quite KO2, but rather a simplified mutant derivative of KO2.

Apart from that, there is a problem in treating option c as an equal to option a and b, since then option c can be chosen ahead of a and b, but where a and b are split between the "I do not want the c option". That is, option c is chosen with less than a 50% vote.

Whether option c is chosen has no bearing on whether I shall go to the WC, but I think it is silly to once again bring up this issue when it is clear that you will only provoke a split in the community by doing this. Or, in other words, I don't understand why it is so imperative to try and force through a rule change when you know that it will piss off many people, including some of the most active and strongest players in the KO2 community (Gianni, John and others).

I may go to the WC, and then I expect that 75% of my matches will be played without the slide fix on the basis of a gentlemans's agreement, despite option c being chosen. And in the rest of my matches, I will do my best to obliterate any opponents who insisted on playing another game than the original and fully challenging game of KO2. :P

But it's really no big deal, I just think it is silly. To start with, Oliver St said in very short terms that he would not accept an undesired slide fix, and yet, here we are, with people lobbying for it and provoking a vote etc.

But we are all good friends anyway, and this is what I don't understand. Being friendly should be what is our main focus, so why on heaven's earth do people want to risk an argument just because they can't deal with a 20 year old trapping mechanism? (Hyperbole intended...)

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