A REVIEW OF DAY 2

Talk about any Kick Off Tournament here.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
uncle_colin
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 12:00 am
Location: Worcester

Postby uncle_colin » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:12 am

stox wrote:
and it seems to me it is better that i retire my Rome bid for some while if I'm not asked to make it here.


The idea of attending an event organised by someone so abusive, and who airs his complaints like a disgruntled 5 year old who didn't get the present he wanted, frankly scares me more than the flight it would take to get there.

(In case you are wondering, I'm not a fan of planes)
Robert
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 16369
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 12:00 am

Postby Robert » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:58 am

Thank you to John, Annnett, Alkis, Martin, Ely, Simon and others for support. I do realise this is just one loudmouth person complaining and please feel reassured that I love you all very much :oops:

Anyone who wants a one-line summary of this very technical post – please head to the end.

Firstly let’s agree that this is a matter of opinion, not correct/incorrect, OK?

When you’re trying to design a draw, you have to make something that combines fresh opponents with fairness.

You have four rounds. You cannot make it so that all four rounds there is no chance of you playing someone you already played. It’s just not possible. So the question you have is, when do you ‘reintroduce’ people to opponents they already met? Which round?

The next point you must accept, before I go any further, is that who you get to play depends on who wins the games just as much as how the draw is designed.

So, a week before the tournament I built from scratch this format, on xls:

Image

I emailed this to my format co-organisers Alkis and Sascha, and asked them whether they had any comments. Both said it was fine. So we take collective responsibility for the format.

This was an experimental format and, even though it may not have been perfect for you Marco, it was an advance on what happened in previous World Cups. This is because it kept everyone busy until the end; we created three knockouts, and many more people got to play their own finals and semi-finals.

It’s maybe not clear for people to see from the above how this works, but in principle, if you win all your games:

Round 1
A1 vs B4

Round 2
A1 vs Winner (A2/B3)

Round 3
A1 vs Winner (B1/A4 v B2/A3) The Group A/B ‘final’

Round 4
A1 vs Winner (Groups C/D)

As you can see, in rounds 1 and 4 you are guaranteed to play new people. This is because I decided that games 1 and 4 were the most important. Your first match makes the biggest difference to your overall position (up to 8 places) and the final match is against your most closely-matched opponent.

Now, there are a lot of other ways to design this. We could mix A/B with C/D at an earlier stage – in the 3rd or even 2nd rounds. But if you do this, you make a possibility that the fourth round will be a Day One revenge match. I didn’t like this possibility. I really liked the idea of two ‘champions’ from A/B and C/D having the final. I can see that other people may not prefer this, but that’s how I wanted to do it and it was an experimental format.

If we take my own example – rounds 2 and 3 were repeat matches for me. Round 2 I played Jacob, who was (for the purpose of example above) A2. Round 3 I played Ben Chen who was (again for the example) A4. But my first and last matches were new opponents (Stox and Beard).

I am quite happy to accept that it could have been better for Round 2 to be A1 vs winner B2/A3, rather than A2/B3. This is because the 2nd place player should be better than the 3rd and therefore we should design the structure around the likelihood that A2 and B2 should win.

Still reading anybody?

So… perhaps this could have been better.

Round 1
A1 vs B4

Round 2
A1 vs Winner (B2/A3)

Round 3
A1 vs Winner (B1/A4 v B2/A3) The Group A/B ‘final’

Round 4
A1 vs Winner (Groups C/D)

Fine. So let’s apply this to my real life example…..

Here’s where you learn the most important lesson. It doesn’t matter how you design the draw….people WILL meet again and as organiser you have no control over who wins the actual games….

D5 Robert beat C8 Marco S
D6 Jacob beat C7 Glenn
D7 Knut beat C6 Maurizio
D8 Ben beat C5 Stefan

That’s right: all the group D guys won and all the group C guys lost! Group D pwned and Group C were n00bs. So that is why the next two rounds were played purely ‘within’ groups C and D. Because all four guys in D were winners in the first round, and all four guys from C were eliminated.

So, even if we made the change above, where A1’s next game is matched with the 2nd player from the next group….(which would be a good change) it still wouldn’t have made any difference. What we had in Groups C and D (and what I think made you so angry Marco) was a distortion created by the fact that no-one of the C guys won their games. Sorry…but I can’t put you in the quarter-final if you lose! You have to play the other losers. If the other losers are people from your group….this IS a repeat match!

This is a complex enough discussion already and I am sure that very few people are still reading. However…. I said at the start I would provide a one-line summary:

It doesn’t matter how you design the draw, winners must play winners and losers must play losers. Eventually you will come across someone you already played and it’s impossible to design a system to prevent this.
User avatar
Abyss
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5905
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 12:00 am
Location: Athens, Greece
Contact:

Postby Abyss » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:16 pm

The summary is that no matter how you design the format, Alkis and Klaus will meet at some point.
Robert
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 16369
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 12:00 am

Postby Robert » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:23 pm

The thing is....it's a very difficult and subtle point to get across....BUT

This tournament is not like other tournaments, because you continue playing after you are knocked out. Therefore you will meet someone you played before, and there is nothing you can do about it. The only question is when? In the first round, the QF? The SF? The Final? The 7th/8th place playoff? When is the appropriate time for you to meet someone you played already?

The idea that the organiser could have prevented re-playing Day One opponents is a fallacy, and it's very important that people understand this.

Just as it's impossible for the organiser to control the results of the matches, the fact that players are 'recycled' after they lose means that you will have reunions with former opponents. It's just a question of when. We made it in Rounds 2 and 3. So shoot us!
User avatar
SimonB
2000+ Poster!
2000+ Poster!
Posts: 2717
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 12:00 am

Postby SimonB » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:32 pm

No matter how you design the format ... I should be World Champion not Spyros! Can you please kindly send me the shield and all will be forgiven.
Birmingham 2011 World Cup: 15th best player :)
User avatar
Abyss
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5905
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 12:00 am
Location: Athens, Greece
Contact:

Postby Abyss » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:33 pm

I think that it should have been designed so that players who win aren't meeting players they have always played against.

In all groups we had no1 vs no2 playing on the Quarter Finals, just one round after their group match. Maybe that was too close.
User avatar
stox
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:19 am
Location: Rome, Italy

Postby stox » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:35 pm

Sure, winners play with winners and loosers with loosers, but I really do not know why 3 italians were in semifinals taking at least one place from alkis or michaelO or you cannot garantee me that i loose with AlexB which was in bad mood if i meet him in 2nd round (after two deserved losses with you) instead of being depresed in the 4th round after 6 losses. Perhaps I became 26th and not 32rd. Does not change my life, but why on hell shouldn't we do the things right and in a correct way?

You cannot see the best and worse case only, you have to see also all the intermediate positions which are sensibly influenced by the format you use!
Your format is similar to the nba playoffs, where you have two corporations (west and east) and the champs of it go for the title. But IN MY OPINION (hope this can be considered to be the correct reply mode here) this is not the imposition you can make on KO2 Worldcups where as you always said, we have to meet as much opponents as possible, and this principle is not maximized.

I'm sure you can agree with this Robert. Its fallacy thinking that rematches can be avoided, sure thing. But the problem is as you say when should rematches happens. IN MY OPINION they should happen after on, on the 3rd/4th round, if all the components of one group demonstrates that COMPARED TO OTHER GROUPS they always are able to loose or win. The problem is that if you play with group mates before, you eliminate possible COMPARISONS BETWEEN GROUPS, and this is not right. The semifinals of TOP16 demonstrated it.

I see the format should first make group matches, then COMPARE players among groups as much as possible and AFTER THIS define the players single positions. Else you will have among the two AB and CD coalization only finals for the best and worse cases.
Marco S. alias Stox

Missed WC 2011, 2010 and 2009: this should stop in future; WC 2008 placed 29th; WC2007 placed 15th (CO-ORGANIZER OF THE WORLDCUP); WC2006 placed 32th; WC2005 placed 24th
User avatar
alkis21
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 15076
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Athens, Greece
Contact:

Postby alkis21 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:36 pm

Anyway, no point discussing it further at this point. Let's just keep it in mind for the future.
Remember, remember, the 4th and the 3rd of November
Image
User avatar
stox
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:19 am
Location: Rome, Italy

Postby stox » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:41 pm

agreed. and please let keep in mind also the top16, mid16 and lower16 format, i liked that and it seems that other liked that too!
Marco S. alias Stox

Missed WC 2011, 2010 and 2009: this should stop in future; WC 2008 placed 29th; WC2007 placed 15th (CO-ORGANIZER OF THE WORLDCUP); WC2006 placed 32th; WC2005 placed 24th
Robert
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 16369
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 12:00 am

Postby Robert » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:49 pm

Marco that was much better. Through using respectful communication, all is possible.

I do fully understand what you are saying.

Next year, I think we will probably keep the Top/Mid/Lower structure and then in the second round put A1/B4 with C2/D3. Maybe R2D2 and C3PO will also enter the tournament.

This way we keep 'new players early' as the priority rather than 'new player in the final'.

I think we all agree now that the number of rematches was not made any better or worse by this year's structure. It really depends on who wins/loses their games, just how much players will converge again. It was just a question of timing. If people want new players in the QF more than new players in the Final, this is fairly easy to change.

At least now we are talking about matters of opinion and what is best, not questions of correct/incorrect and professional/unprofessional. Through using respectful communication, all is possible.
User avatar
alkis21
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 15076
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Athens, Greece
Contact:

Postby alkis21 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:55 pm

Robert Swift wrote:Maybe R2D2 and C3PO will also enter the tournament.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

R2D2 for champion! Revenge of the shorties!
Remember, remember, the 4th and the 3rd of November
Image
Freshmaker
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12374
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:00 am
Location: Humlebæk, Denmark
Contact:

Postby Freshmaker » Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:08 pm

I can't say I had any problems re-playing the person who beat me in 3 matches before in the same tourney in my semifinal in the KOA-cup last year. :D
-----------------------------
Winner of The Silver Cup 2019
Lifetime Achievement Award 2015
Founder of FÖKOF and FAKO
The Aftertouch Podcast.
Wayne's and Nick's Carreer Ender
The People's Lockout!
Il portiere è mongoloide!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests