There is no god

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jesper
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Re: There is no god

Postby jesper » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:07 pm

dnielsen wrote:However, I find some consolation in the fact that God may exist even though I may personally never gain knowledge of it.

I'm puzzled.Why would you want god to exist?

dnielsen wrote:I do not think I am an atheist, though. Let me put it this way: A world in which God exists makes about as much sense to me as a world in which there is no god. Either way, not a lot!

These are the only two options, right? So the world makes no sense to you?

What was your result on the atheism test?

dnielsen wrote:Any way, I do not mind atheists who hold the belief:

"There is no god."

I do mind, though, when atheists hold the pair of beliefs:

"There is no god, and you are WRONG (in an absolute sense) if you believe otherwise."


How about "There is no god, and you are superstitious if you believe otherwise."?

dnielsen wrote:Likewise, religious people who do think that they preach The Truth rather than just a belief are also annoying to me. And is that also not your experience? Some religious people are over-zealous and want to share with you The Truth, while other religious people are more careful about it and mainly refer to their belief as a personal belief!?


I am annoyed that religious people are being taken seriously. Even in Denmark we have priests acting as government "experts". They make ludicrous propositions like we should restrict stem cell research since a few cells in a petri dish have a soul :lol:

That is annoying _and_ dangerous.
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Re: There is no god

Postby Rodolfo » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:51 am

jesper wrote:
I am annoyed that religious people are being taken seriously. Even in Denmark we have priests acting as government "experts". They make ludicrous propositions like we should restrict stem cell research since a few cells in a petri dish have a soul :lol:

That is annoying _and_ dangerous.



So wtf you want? Should religious people votes count as half as yours? Should religious people only be allowed to pray at home and not to have freedom of expression? Should we all allow you to decide wether is superstitious or not? You simply hate democracy. You would not last 20 seconds in an argument with the dumbest of the jesuits.

However, I must admit that atheism has one really strong virtue: it is so fucking easy! it does not take the slightest effort or compromise. Really great!
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Re: There is no god

Postby JamesHBeard » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:45 am

Jesper, you surprise me with your anti-religious views.

You cannot prove to anyone that God does not exist, much the same as it is not possible for anyone to prove of Gods existance.

But we know it is very likely that Jesus Christ and Mohammed were alive and kicking and on this planet.. but again its impossible to prove if they were sons of a God or a God type entity.

If Jesus performed the miracles that were told that he performed.. would it not be acceptable for people to consider that he may well be "not of this world" and subsequently a superior being to us stupid humans?

Open your eyes.

On saying that however, there is a hell of a lot of things that I have to mock and laugh about religions..

Christians ----
1 ) they keep changing the bible to suit the current world situation.. like.. oh its not PC to be anti-gay.. lets change the bible so that its ok to be gay..
2) And then christians kill each other coz they only believe in the specific edition of the bible.
3) Catholics, Protestants .. all that shite.. its all about power and greed ,nothing to do with religious beliefs.

Muslims-----
they kill each other because they interpet the koran differently.. yet the koran is always meant to be interpreted individually..
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Re: There is no god

Postby Wonka » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:24 am

dnielsen wrote:
Wonka wrote:Only David Attenborough is qualified to pass good judgement, because his knowledge of the natural world is far superior to anybody else’s. The more you know about something, the more valid your opinion is on that subject. Like Sir David said: "Just look around at the natural world, the evidence is the same everywhere."


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PyJinkFhbSg


He makes the argument that mankind has always held a lot of silly religious beliefs (who can't all simultaneously be right), and then he makes a little leap of logic from the fact that since at least some of them must be wrong, we might as well disregard them all and then just observe nature as is.

But I am not convinced by this argument. As a comparison, mankind has held many silly beliefs about alien visits to the Earth. Mankind has also held many beliefs about aliens inhabiting Mars and other planets in our solar system. Most of these beliefs are obviously inconsistent with commonly held views of the world, and must as such be disregarded. But this does not mean that we will (or should) jump to the conclusion that aliens do not exist, period.



Good post mate, however I'm with David Attenborough all the way. Although he implies that some religions must be wrong, he's tactfully saying that they are all wrong (he has a responsibility to be diplomatic), and when he says that people need to open their eyes to the natural world as the evidence is the same everywhere, he is basically telling people to forget about all the nonsense that is written in their holy books (at least that’s the way I understood his comments).

And you’re right, we shouldn’t jump to the conclusion that anything extraterrestrial or supernatural doesn’t exist. However, if we all understood the natural world as David Attenborough does; our perception and judgment would be much more commonsensical and well thought-out.

I think David Attenborough is the most intelligent person in the world by miles, and the world would be so beautiful if were all like him. If there is a god, I hope he talks like David Attenborough. In fact, I believe David Attenborough is about as close to a god as we will ever experience in life or death. Everything he says about the earth and all living organisms makes perfect sense. Why go to a church or a mosque and listen to uncultivated theories, when you can experience David Attenborough’s rational, scientific observations?
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Re: There is no god

Postby dnielsen » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:34 am

jesper wrote:I'm puzzled.Why would you want god to exist?

I elaborate. I am, like many other people, afraid of dying. It is difficult to explain the scope of this fear. However, I think that if I gained knowledge of God, I would be able to meet my doom with a much less troubled and frightened mind. Anyway, a kind of worst case scenario for me is that our lives are completely without deeper meaning. My point now is that even if I were never to gain knowledge of God, he may still exist and there may still have been a meaning to mine and everybody else's existence (even though I intellectually struggle to accept the concept of such a thing). I would prefer that God existed because the alternative is so hard to contemplate.

These are the only two options, right? So the world makes no sense to you?

You are right, in either scenario The World as object does not make a lot of sense to me. I think I have matured to understand that some things are simply far beyond my comprehension and basically nonsensical to discuss. So I have stopped trying to make sense of things like The World and The Truth, as you can see in my discussion with davetoast. I even insist that it is nonsensical and immature to appeal to such (absolute) concepts.

What was your result on the atheism test?

I had two "errors" and was only a leverstegsateist. However, the test was silly. Almost every question was of the form "do you believe X", with yes and no as options. But since I am generally agnostic about these things (and often wouldn't accept the question), I had to answer no to all these questions. However, I would also have answered no the opposite questions ("do you believe non-x"). By the way, I see this as yet another example of many atheists adhering to a flawed logic of "since there is no believable evidence of God, you must believe he does not exist". An equivalent of this test would be: "Do you believe ETs crashlanded in Rosswell?" And then if you answered no, it would tell you that you believe that ETs do not exist. It's poor reasoning.

How about "There is no god, and you are superstitious if you believe otherwise."?

Saying that religious people are superstitious is just a condescending way of saying that they are Wrong in an absolute way. So now the atheist is not only immaturely claiming that religious people Must Be Wrong, but he is also saying that they are stupid. Underestimating other people is, btw, a typical sign of an immature mind, so this just reinforces the impression that (many) atheists are immature in their way of thinking :-)

I am annoyed that religious people are being taken seriously. Even in Denmark we have priests acting as government "experts". They make ludicrous propositions like we should restrict stem cell research since a few cells in a petri dish have a soul :lol:

That is annoying _and_ dangerous.

I would recommend that you try to meet and talk to and befriend people that:

1) You accept are wise and possess types of experience that you don't.
2) Who possess many different points of view.

This way, you may learn that there is a lot to lose and a lot of harm to be done by putting people you disagree with on /ignore.
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Re: There is no god

Postby Wonka » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:39 am

JamesHBeard wrote:Jesper, you surprise me with your anti-religious views.

You cannot prove to anyone that God does not exist, much the same as it is not possible for anyone to prove of Gods existance.

But we know it is very likely that Jesus Christ and Mohammed were alive and kicking and on this planet.. but again its impossible to prove if they were sons of a God or a God type entity.

If Jesus performed the miracles that were told that he performed.. would it not be acceptable for people to consider that he may well be "not of this world" and subsequently a superior being to us stupid humans?

Open your eyes.

On saying that however, there is a hell of a lot of things that I have to mock and laugh about religions..

Christians ----
1 ) they keep changing the bible to suit the current world situation.. like.. oh its not PC to be anti-gay.. lets change the bible so that its ok to be gay..
2) And then christians kill each other coz they only believe in the specific edition of the bible.
3) Catholics, Protestants .. all that shite.. its all about power and greed ,nothing to do with religious beliefs.

Muslims-----
they kill each other because they interpet the koran differently.. yet the koran is always meant to be interpreted individually..



Christian's don't kill each other. When was the last time that happened? There has been perhaps a dozen religiously motivated murders committed by Christians in recent years. It's very wrong of you to equate Christian's with all the nutters from the Islamic world who are going around chopping peoples heads off and blowing people up every single day of the year. And what you said about the Koran is pure nonsense. The Koran is supposed to be strictly followed, and it warns Muslims in no uncertain terms about the severe consequences if they do not obey Mohammed's barbaric commands. That's why Muslims kill.
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Re: There is no god

Postby JamesHBeard » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:53 am

Wonka wrote:Christian's don't kill each other. When was the last time that happened? There has been perhaps a dozen religiously motivated murders committed by Christians in recent years. It's very wrong of you to equate Christian's with all the nutters from the Islamic world who are going around chopping peoples heads off and blowing people up every single day of the year.


You cannot have the best of both worlds mate.. Christians are responsible for the deaths of more humans than all the other religions put together.

Just because Islam is currently in the headlines I am sure it will not be long before Christianity comes back and starts blazing for "God". The Chrsitian fundamental following in the USA is growing rapidly..

Besides, I don't think killing of folk in Ireland happened that long ago and that was a catholic/protestant issue.

Even Hitler was a Roman Catholic and that was only 40 years ago. How many did he kill ?
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Re: There is no god

Postby Rodolfo » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:40 pm

JamesHBeard wrote:
Even Hitler was a Roman Catholic and that was only 40 years ago. How many did he kill ?


Hitler was roman catholic baptized, not a roman catholic. I would not have to remark that he was deeply anti religious.

In fact, he, and Stalin, and Mao, and Pol Pot can give us a fine example of what is an anti God society, where people with religious beliefs have their rights limited, and shortly after then directly killed.
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Re: There is no god

Postby SimonB » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:19 pm

Wonka wrote:Christian's don't kill each other. When was the last time that happened?


... erm N Ireland ... Catholics and Protestants seemed quite happy to kill each other for 40+ years ...
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Re: There is no god

Postby Tripod » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:30 pm

Sorry, god fearers, but I'll just post this clip again:

http://www.videosift.com/video/Bill-Mah ... us-Spoiler

Ok, I'll say a bit more myself. Going back to the original post and Alkis failing to understand it: Both Bill Maher (seen in that clip) and especially Richard Dawkins have made something clear (to me at least): It's possibly not enough to just be silent about the issue. Of course, 99% of believers are perfectly nice people. But they in turn enable all those who commit crimes in the name of religion. And those are as abundant as they've ever been. George W. Bush said god told him to invade Iraq. Ah, so it wasn't Bush, it was god who made the decision. Yeah, right.

Now I guess there's no problem if you are simply a "deist": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

That is, you simply need a someone who created everything because to you it's the best explanation. But no god who answers to personal prayers, no bible you have to follow by the letter and all the other nonsense.

And it's probably a good idea to "preach" atheism - or at least the problems of the current set of religions we have so that people cannot get away with saying "god told me to do so". In Bill Maher's film there is a 911 recording of a woman who called the police and told them she had just killed her two children because god told her to do so. I hope not too many Christians are happy with that.
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Re: There is no god

Postby Robert » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:28 pm

I find atheists (or should that be Dawkinsists now, as he is their prophet) can be quite an arrogant bunch. If atheists could prove successfully that there is not a God, then they would have a better platform. Unfortunately the standard approach is to treat agnostics or believers as if they are mentally ill and talk down to them like children. This just makes me want to fight on the opposite side. Guys, if you have the answers to everything, please give us your coherent world view in full - leaving NO GAPS or unexplained ideas - instead of self-satisfied, cheap comments. Then we can set upon you and tear you apart.

Let us be clear that the bible, the church, the Koran are all human constructs and - even though their supporters claim that they are acting on behalf of God - their actions are all HUMAN and not those of God. Therefore, easy as it is to pull apart the actions of the church or the words of the bible, you are only able to score a hit on humans and not God him/herself.

As far as I can see it, those people around this forum (Dagh, Rodolfo, me) who might either believe in God, want to believe in God or not rule out the existence of God.... well, you don't see us trying to convert anyone, or attacking anyone else's views, or starting any wars in the name of God. So why behave like assholes towards such people? Why not demonstrate some respect, as a starting point. This then gives atheism, indirectly, some respect as a world view, instead of making it appear the refuge of smart-asses who think they know everything.
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Re: There is no god

Postby Rodolfo » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:31 pm

It is terribly naif pretending that with the elimination of God and religion we would finish with the fools acting as criminals because 'God told them so'. They would simply say some other stupidity, like 'the cat told me so', or 'the forest told me so' or 'the great leader told me so'.

I have to remark again that the worst crimes of the XX century were the product of anti religious societys. Deny that.
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Re: There is no god

Postby JamesHBeard » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:37 pm

I am just happy to be a Temporal Agnostic as I just have to relax and wonder why everyone else is fussing over something that neither party can prove either way.. what a waste of life you lot lead :)
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